Imo State governor, Owelle Rochas Okorocha, contested for the presidential ticket of the All Progressives Congress (APC), losing eventually to the APC standard bearer in the March 28 election, Major General Muhammadu Buhari (retd). He told LAOLU HAROLDS and MODUPE GEORGE in this interview that he still has his eyes on the presidency – a dream he believes will be fulfilled someday. He also commented on other national issues, including the seemingly intractable corruption.
Some people say that your party, the All Progressives Congress (APC),and the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) are two sides of the same coin. As a matter of fact, President Goodluck Jonathan was quoted recently as saying that the APC would collapse without the PDP. So, if APC is just the flipside of the PDP, and you are promising change, how much ‘change’ can that be?
People don’t understand; they think when we say ‘change’, we mean to change Jonathan. It goes beyond changing Jonathan. It means changing the way we do things in this country. It means changing those things that have kept us in perpetual poverty and ignorance; it means creating the necessary awareness for people to rediscover themselves. That’s why we in the APC have our clear manifesto – what we intend to do, how to address power, education, health. What do you think is wrong with Nigeria? Nigeria is not a poor nation; what is poor is the vision of the leaders. And that’s what we want to change. If you take a good vision now and put in President Jonathan, he will do well. It’s the vision; and if you don’t have it, you don’t have it.
The PDP lacks the vision to develop Nigeria. They don’t have it. And if you ask them, they think they are doing very well. That’s the shocking thing; they think they are at their best! A mad man does not know he is mad. So, they (PDP) don’t even know that they are not doing well. That’s the most annoying thing. I liken that situation to a mad man on the street. If you say ‘you are mad’ to him, he’ll laugh at you. To him, you are the one that is mad. A mad man doesn’t know he is mad. So, the PDP doesn’t even know they have no vision. People should sympathise with them, because they think they are doing their best…
But your party is full of disgruntled elements who moved over from the PDP…
It is not; let’s get it right. It’s not only PDP that people came from. People who share common ideology came from different parties. First of all, we define our goal; we define our vision. That vision attracts you, naturally. And the vision is about the people, not about the leaders. The vision of PDP is leadership-centred, while the vision of APC is people-centred. That’s why you often hear me say ‘My people, my people…’ Everything is about the people. Whatever action we take, we think: ‘how does it impact the lives of the ordinary people?’ But in the PDP, they think of how it can impact on the lives of the leaders. For as long as the national chairman is happy, the president is happy, the ministers are happy, PDP programme is finished.
With the torrent of hate speeches and publications going round, do you still believe the non-violence accord will be honoured? Is violence-free election still feasible?
Yes it is. I think Nigeria is passing through a historic moment which subsequent generationd will have to write about. What is happening in Nigeria is what many great nations of the world had gone through before they reached their point of greatness. I see great things to come in future. I think we are just writing the Nigerian history; it will read like ‘Once upon a time, there was a bad party called PDP; they came and ruined the nation. And behold, a new party came, the APC, that changed things…’ That’s the history that people will write. There must be history. I do not think that all hope is lost in Nigeria. I think there is a great future. I think Nigeria will be better again.
You are a very strong advocate of the use of the Card Reader for this election…
Yes.
But given the ‘above average’ (59 per cent) success rate it recorded when it was test-run by the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC), people are fidgeting that it might not work. Do you think their fear is justified?
You cannot have a perfect election anywhere in the world. If they have tried the Card Reader and it has proven itself above average, it should be used. The essence of the Card Reader is to minimise rigging. If you don’t use thie Card Reader, people will come with photocopies of other people’s PVCs, change the name on it, put their name and come to the place and cause trouble. So, there is no alternative to the Card Reader. Since Nigerians have been made to believe it, and Nigerians now understand the importance of it, it should be used. You won’t have something perfect; you may have something near perfect.
What are the chances of the APC in this election in the South-East, given the Ohanaeze Assembly’s declaration of support for Jonathan?
What is happening in the South-East is apparent support for the PDP, which does not reflect practical reality. Those that you hear their voice in the media are those that carry Mobile Police in front of their cars and wear the big gowns and red caps. They are in the PDP; but ‘my people, my people’ are in the APC – and they are more in number. There is a sharp divide now in the South-East between the haves and the have nots. The masses are for the APC, but they have no voice. You can’t hear them. Those who appear on the front pages of the newspapers are in the PDP – the oppressors; those that have been feeding fat at the expense of the poor masses. The ordinary people are more in number. General Buhari will win. There is this bad politics introduced by PDP about religion, and here is predominantly Christian; so they try to brainwash the people that Buhari will Islamise the whole place. People are very (passionate) about their faith, so they are (vulnerable and are easily taken in with those lies). But we are trying to let them know that it’s not true.
It appears the APC has very little confidence left in the ability of the Jega-controlled INEC to deliver a credible election, given General Buhari’s recent comments about INEC as currently constituted. What is happening?
We believe that he who pays the piper calls the tune. They say INEC is ‘independent’, but the Commission is not independent. It’s a ‘dependent’ electoral commission. They depend on the Federal Government for their survival. They depend on the Federal Government for their salaries, promotion and appointments. They are not independent. That’s why we say that INEC should have come from the Consolidated Revenue of the nation where the National Assembly has a better control. But that’s not what we have. INEC, as it is now, is a branch of the Aso Rock, except for the integrity of the people themselves who might want to say ‘no, we shall do the right thing.’ But that’s the only hope we have now; we believe that as people who are honourable, they will do the right thing.
Corruption and insecurity are major issues in the build-up to this election; but particularly, corruption. It appears the more we fight the thing, the more it becomes a problem. Why do you think this problem has remained with us?
Corruption is a relative term, but it’s like a cankerworm that can destroy a person or a nation. And people have been fighting corruption without conscientising the people, without educating the people. Now, we’ve not been able to define why people get corrupt or go into corrupt practices in the first place. Some do because of insecurity. When people become ministers, then later when they are no longer ministers and they can’t feed, they are made to look like trash – insecurity. And this idea of using army, police to chase people around is not fighting of corruption at all. In fact, it’s hardening people the more; they get more hardened in corruption to save more to corrupt those who are coming to check them. That’s why corruption is at its highest. If somebody knows that if he steals $1 billion and when the EFCC comes he can throw $200 million and they close the case, he’s making profit. So, the way they are fighting corruption is not the real way. That’s why it appears that it’s used to witchhunt political enemies.
Take for instance, how come that the Federal Government that takes about 56 per cent of the total revenue of the whole nation, nobody is corrupt – the president is not corrupt, the vice-president is not corrupt, the ministers are not corrupt, no director is corrupt; nobody is corrupt! Where you have corrupt people are in the APC states. Is that fighting of corruption? We need to sing a new song in this anti-corruption fight. Patriotism is in the love of country, and not in the fear of the law. We must be trained to love our country. If you love your country, you won’t engage in primitive accumulation of wealth. Corruption is from the head. Once the presidency is not corrupt, nobody will be corrupt. This is why we are saying Buhari, Buhari. He does not carry knife, but from the head you won’t see corruption, so everybody will behave well. Corruption in Nigeria is corruption from the head of Nigeria – from the Presidency.
Distribution of wealth in Nigeria is top-heavy. It seems the leaders get everything, while the followers get nothing. Why have we not been able to change this? Political offices are too attractive. Can’t we make it less attractive so that it can attract only those who are willing to serve?
You are telling me the problem of Nigeria. The problem of Nigeria is over-concentration of political power in the hand of one man. The governors are too powerful; the president of Nigeria is the most powerful president in the world. There is no decentralisation of power and authority, resulting in this kwashiorkor existence – big head, tiny and feeble legs. But if you can decentralise that and make the bottom heavy and the top light, there will be no poverty in Nigeria. That is why we have lack of power, unemployment and other problems – over-concentration of power, making the federal government too heavy and states too small.
When will this begin to change? The National Assembly is not willing to address it…
…When the right man assumes that office. Everyone wants to enjoy the full power of the president; so no one wants to touch it. But when you have someone who is ready to make sacrifice, on his own he will set in motion what is called systematic devolution of power. The police is over-centralised; you have an Inspector-General of Police that sits in Abuja and commands the whole nation. The Divisional Police Officer (DPO) has no commanding power, because there is no finance. Yet, in Abuja they sit on billions of naira, while the DPO here does not have N1000. Meanwhile, the activity is in the local government, while there is no crime in the headquarters. Imagine where the IG only has N5000 and the DPO has N10,000, there’ll be no crime in Nigeria.
Your critics accuse you of being over-ambitious; that immediately you lost the race to pick the presidential ticket of the APC, you ran back home to pick the governorship ticket. How do you respond to that?
It’s not over-ambition. My target has always been to be the president of the Federal Republic of Nigeria; and the easiest way to get to the presidency is by being a governor really. I never wanted to run for the office of governor; I had always wanted to be a president. And I know one day I’ll be president; but in the last dispensation, what happened was that the APC was very weak in the South-East. And there is no way the South-East would feel ownership of that party if one of their own does not go for the presidential election. So, I ran for that election to give (South-East) a sense of belonging. That was not my style of winning election. If I had run as Rochas Okorocha, I would have done much better than I did. I tried that three times before; I came second to late Umaru Yar’Adua when I ran for president, without being a governor. I came first in the then All Nigeria Peoples Party (ANPP) when I ran for president. It was all for creation of awareness for my party – and it has worked.
What should people consider when making their choice in this election?
They should check people’s track record. Don’t vote anyone that has no track record, because no man can change at the age of 40. If you are a thief or criminal and people vote you believing that you will change, a criminal will be a criminal for ever. (If you are a criminal), when you become governor you become ‘Excellency criminal’. But if you are the type that considers the poor people, when you become governor, that follows you. You can’t change; it’s your nature. Unfortunattely, in this country, we don’t consider track record; we just vote criminals into power. If it’s done the way it’s supposed to be done, 70 per cent of those in authority today won’t be in those positions. So, I’d ask Nigerians to check people’s track record. Whatever you are, that’s what you’ll bring to bear in government. Government does not change people; it brings out that which is in you and expands it. If you are a good person, when you come to government you become a better person. If you are a bad person, when you come to government you become more evil. If you are a wicked man, when you become governor you become more wicked with arms. What is the track record of General Buhari? What is the track record of President Jonathan? Age does not change any man. If you see Buhari now, you will know that the man will not say yes to corruption. And if he wins now, all corrupt people will run, out of fear of Buhari; because that’s his nature. People are scared not that he’s a bad man; they are scared that once he wins, most people will be in trouble. That’s why they are afraid; and that’s why they are fighting him.
But what are the chances of Buhari winning this election…?
He has won already, because the people are with him, and the people want change. They don’t know what the change will bring, but they believe they are due for change. Nigerians cannot continue to go without electricity. Dollar is hitting the roof. Everything has gone down in Nigeria.
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